11 of the 17 FA cars that have failed with my tunes on them were catless.
Catless cars cause boost creep which takes away my ability to control boost at high rpm. See plots at bottom of page. To explain the boost control and plots. The wastegate duty cycle is what controls the boost. When the wastegate duty cycle is zero the car runs what is called "wastegate boost". The stock turbo comes with an 8 psi wastegate. So on a stock car if you zero out the wastegate duty cycle it will run 8 psi flat all the way to redline. On the plots you will see that I am dumping the wastegate duty cycle to 0% at 6000rpm and the boost is still "creeping" to 20+psi on all the plots. The big issue here is that the cars are just out of fuel. When they run out of fuel they just go crazy and knock and misfire. You can see how all the lines just go bonkers after 6000rpm. This is completely different behavior than a fuel injected EJ STi.
It is possible to try and close the throttle at higher rpm to prevent/reduce boost creep, but every car is different and it's simply too risky.
Since the boost will uncontrollably rise at high rpm and cause the car to run out of fuel, it puts me in a bad spot and forces me to lean the car out so it won't run out of fuel....which ultimately can lead to the car being more knock prone at high rpm.
It's simply not the proper way to setup a vehicle. Even if your particular car is not experiencing boost creep, I would still tune it in a way that expects it to happen. Which ultimately is going to keep the power down.....which defeats the whole purpose you went catless in the first place.
CATTED J-PIPE - Ultimately just selling the catless j-pipe and picking up a catted one is my most favorable solution, but it is both costly and time consuming so I know most people will not do it.
METH INJECTION - This is the simplest and cheapest solution I can recommend. I will tune a catless car if a methanol injection kit is added. Since the issue with being catless is running out of fuel, adding meth will increase the fueling capacity of the vehicle and prevent you from running out of fuel if a boost creep situation does occur. Meth injection also has the added benefits of increasing the octane of your fuel, decreasing the post intercooler air temperature entering the engine, both of which will reduce knock and it will also clean the intake valves so you won't have to walnut blast them later. So if you're going to spend $400 to have someone walnut blast the valves at some point, then it seems like a no-brainer to spend $470 on a meth kit now and receive all the added benefits from it.
EXTERNAL WASTEGATE HEADER - I do NOT recommend this option.
- External wg's do not work "properly" on FA's due to the location and space constraints. their design of the headers and ext wg ports the boost control is not greatly enhanced, leads to worse spool and the ext wg’s actually ”boost creep” worse than the Internal wg turbos. Even in 90 degree temps, 14 psi springs will produce 20-22 psi on wg boost and the boost continues to increase as the temperature decreases. So they actually cause equivalent or worse boost creep issues than an internal wg and catless exhaust, which defeats the whole purpose of spending $2k on them. The issue is mostly remedied by using lower psi springs, but the lower spring pressures cause slower spool, issues with achieving target boost at high elevations, and they can still creep if the temp gets cold enough.
- $1500 - $2000. Very expensive and very little value vs the cost. Money is better spent on a better FMIC, a bigger turbo or put into a shortblock fund for when Rodney comes knocking.
- People buy catless exhausts to save money and for the loud noises. The ext wg's defeat both of these benefits because they are expensive and the ext wg noise over powers the catless exhaust noise.
I would really only recommend this option if you are trying to run an ethanol SEND IT map on a stock engine or you just want a really loud setup. Personally I would put the money towards a short block fund or an FP Blue.
Catted vs Catless Downpipes in Cold Weather (Boost Creep)
Does boost creep happen on 15+ WRX's?
- YES, it can.
What is boost creep? And how do I know if I have it?
- Boost creep is when the boost uncontrollably rises at high rpm. Boost creep can NOT be tuned out, it is a mechanical limitation of the wastegate that occurs from running a catless exhausts and intakes combined with cold temperatures (typically below 40* F). You can see in the pictures at the bottom of the page that the boost pressure continues increasing uncontrollably after 6000rpm with the wastegate duty cycle at 0%. Boost creep is exaggerated with every restriction that is removed from the exhaust. Boost creep is caused from the lack of back pressure and the physical wastegate hole being too small to bypass all the exhaust gas. Since the exhaust can’t fit through the wastegate hole, it is forced through the turbine wheel which causes the boost to uncontrollably rise.
But I've been running a catless exhaust for years and I don't boost creeep!
- Are you sure? Because ALL subarus with even a catted TBE experience boost creep. So if you have an aftermarket exhaust on your car, you are already experiencing boost creep, it simply isn't bad enough to cause an issue. Have you ever actually plotted out your boost curve? Boost creep does NOT mean you are exceeding your PEAK BOOST value. Boost creep only occurs at high rpm where the boost normally tapers off. Not all cars will experience detrimental boost creep with a catless exhaust. It’s about the backpressure of the complete exhaust system, plus the intake system, plus the outside temperatures.
But my friends brothers cousins sisters dad says boost creep doesn't happen on the FA!
- Just because one person doesn’t experience boost creep does not mean boost creep can’t happen. At the bottom of the page you can see a boost plot FROM THE SAME CAR with a catless jpipe vs catted jpipe. You can clearly see the boost uncontrollably rises to redline with the catless setup. The catted setup is also boost creeping, just not as severely. The major issue with boost creep is the boost uncontrollably rising and maxing out the fuel system. Maxing out the fuel system will cause the car to lean out and misfire at high rpm and potentially reach failure. Porting the internal wg hole may reduce boost creep, but the only real cure for it is an external wastegate. An electronic boost controller will not prevent boost creep. A manual boost controller will not prevent boost creep. Boost creep can not be tuned out.
For these reasons, I highly recommend staying with a catted exhaust.
Q) What is boost creep?
A) Boost creep occurs when the wastegate is physically unable to bypass enough exhaust around the turbine on the turbo.
Q) Is boost creep harmful?
A) Yes, boost creep is one of the worst problems you can have with a turbo engine. Boost creep means that there is NO way for the boost pressure to be controlled. Boost pressures in excess of 20psi!!! have been recorded on STIs with TBE before the ECU cuts fuel.
Q) What causes boost creep?
A) Installing a turbo back exhaust whether aftermarket catted or not will in almost all cases cause boost creep to a certain extent although Catless exhaust with an aftermarket intake is the worse case.
Q) Are there any other options to prevent boost creep besides porting the wastegate?
A) Yes, Installation of an exhaust that either keeps one of the stock cats should not cause boost creep as severely as a fully open exhaust.
Q) How do I know if I have boost creep?
A) The best way is to have data and graph out the boost like the plot below. It’s much easier to visually see creep on a graph that by trying to watch an AP while you’re driving.
Q) What is the overboost CEL?
A) P0244 - Boost Limit Exceeded
Q) Is there anything else I can do besides porting the wastegate to prevent the creeping....MBC, EBCS, engine management etc?
A) Yes, get an external wastegate.
If you think of it as a hierarchy, then it should make sense.
level 1) wastegate controls boost pressure
level 2) boost solenoid (EBCS or MBC) controls wastegate
level 3) ECU controls boost solenoid
Using this logic, if the problem resides on the 1st level, no matter what you do on top of it, you will still have the problem. Whatever (MBC, EBCS, UTEC, ECUTEK, COBB) is controlling the wastegate CANNOT prevent boost creep if the WASTEGATE is UNABLE TO FLOW ENOUGH EXHAUST to prevent boost creep. A fuel cut defender will not eliminate the boost creep problem, but it will stop the fuel cut. Your boost will still creep up to 20psi, but the ECU won't be able to tell due to the altered signal from the FCD.
Q) My car seems to boost creep when it is cold out. Why is that?
A) Ambient temperature plays a huge role in how well your engine runs. In general, the cooler ambient temperature, the better your engine runs due to the laws of thermodynamics. The colder air causes your engine to make more HP (more work under the curve with lower temps), therefore more dense exhaust gasses; therefore your car is more prone to boost creep when it is cold out. If you live in an area that does not see colder temperatures (AZ for example) too often, then boost creep may never become a problem.
Q) I want to port my wastegate. What do I do?
A) Can you remove and install a turbo? If yes, there are a couple of options. You can send it to a local machine shop port it, or do it yourself with a "Dremmel like" tool.
Copyright © 2022 PhatBotti Tuning - All Rights Reserved. Products sold by PhatBotti Tuning are sold for off-road use only and are intended for racing vehicles which may never be used on a public road. By purchasing any aftermarket performance product, the customer takes full responsibility for any use, and/or misuse of the product and agrees that PhatBotti Tuning holds no responsibility for any consequences, legal, or other, of such use and/or misuse.
1240 N. Simon Circle Suite G, Anaheim, CA 92806